amanda
Puppy not yet Weaned
Posts: 4
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Post by amanda on Aug 30, 2009 14:19:05 GMT -6
My apologies Clifford,
I have been around lacys for 4 or 5 years Just interested Sorry but a dog is a dog, training will vary form dog to dog regardless of the breed and I have lacys, worked with BC's, bird dogs, and cat's (yes they are very hard headed!)
It is my understanding that you blood trail with your dogs....Do you not think that if you came across a wounded deer your dog would not try and hold it. I have seen dogs out of Ms. Rileys lines do this very thing. So....are these dogs being bred too gritty?
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Post by Clifford on Aug 30, 2009 15:17:27 GMT -6
At this point, my dogs will bay, not attempt to hold a live deer. We worked that out last year. Plus, in Ilinois, I have to work them on a lead. That makes me nervous, because it does open the window for a charging buck to get the dog in a bound up situation. But, then it's my job to step in... Can they get hurt. Well, of course they can. But, I have done everything I can up to this point to train them so that it won't happen I am very fortunate, in that I am with my dogs 24 hours a day. And, we have taken advantage of that time together. My job is these dogs! So, I will always do everything I can to insure their safety!
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betty
Walkin Talkin Poopin Machine
Posts: 67
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Post by betty on Aug 30, 2009 15:30:59 GMT -6
Clifford,
I dont want to continue in a post that you feel is turning bad. But, I would like the chance to say what I think, just as the others on this thread have. So, you let me know, what I have to say is only giving my opinion, let me know if you want me to continue.
Betty
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Post by bluedog on Aug 30, 2009 15:48:29 GMT -6
Ms Betty,
When I made my post earlier I was not refering to you when I said I was told to shut up about hog hunting.
Your #1 in my book.
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Post by Clifford on Aug 30, 2009 16:00:54 GMT -6
Betty, I am truly sorry that you end up in the middle of things. But, it just shows that you are liked by many! And, I know that you would prefer that everyone gets along.
At our house, you are considered a friend. That does not extend to all of the others that may also call you a friend. I don't like a lot of the things that I have seen, and heard about. But, this all started with a story that made it appear that a dog was not attended to when it was badly hurt. That's what got me fired up enough to post about it. Later, I made my apologies.
But, I now hear that these same folks want to keep this stirred up. And, that they have treated my other friends unfairly. So, I guess I will just have to stick with my first impression, which is you and Jimmy are alright! And, that's where it stops with me!
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Post by rebeccaferrell on Aug 30, 2009 17:44:31 GMT -6
Betty, I never ever said it was acceptable to have any dog killed. I'm only trying to narrow this subject to Lacy's which don't have the physical attributes, like a strong jaw and head, like a pit bull hence my reference to grey hounds and mutts. I hunted over 30 yrs ago. Yes it was a thrill and luckily none of our pits were injured. ALSO, I'm not saying that it's not alright to hunt prey with dogs. My bone of contention is that some methods are safer for dogs..I admire hunters who use vests, cut collars and tracking systems. We didn't have this back in the day. I'm really confused as to why you think that you've had some personal attack.. everyone on this forum holds you in the highest regards. It is obvious from your posts that you are a caring, good hearted person. I'm so thankful that this is an open forum; open to discussion without the fear of written reprimands and ridicule. We all have opinions and they aren't the same, believe me, but we are welcome here, unlike other places.
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amanda
Puppy not yet Weaned
Posts: 4
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Post by amanda on Aug 30, 2009 18:30:26 GMT -6
Clifford,
When hog hunting you do not have the privilege of running your dogs on lead. They must be able to handle the situation until you get there with the catch dogs. I do not know of many dog breeds that will not try and get something the same size as them, especially if there is a pack. This is where the danger comes into play. Most of your injuries will come from a smaller/dog size hog. Think about it would you go and wrestle Hulk Hogan or would you rather wrestle Mini Me? You have to train your dogs for any hog you come across.
I do not know the rules regarding bays in Mississippi, but I would be willing to bet that 90% of your hunters would agree that bay dogs do not make great hunters and vice versa. Just because you can ride a bicycle does not mean you can ride a motorcycle
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Post by bluedog on Aug 30, 2009 20:08:56 GMT -6
I can ride a bicycle and I can ride a motorcycle, too me there both the same. Its the getting back up and dusting myself off that gets old.
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marloriley
Walkin Talkin Poopin Machine
Do you need training?
Posts: 76
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Post by marloriley on Aug 31, 2009 1:43:29 GMT -6
This is how I took the starting post on this thread, and this topic in general.
There are many different methods individual hog hunters select. It is not just one way.
There are hog hunters that do not use catch dogs and run about 3 strike and bay dogs at a time. They have their dogs trained to be able to use a gun.
There are others that take hogs out alive and use a couple of strike dogs and a catch dog or two for getting in, and hobbling the hog.
There are others that stick hogs with a knife, so they don't have guns around their dogs.
There are some that run 6 to 12 dogs at a time.
Some methods are more dangerous then others, but the potential is there, that one could get hurt. Yes, when you drop more dogs down at a time, the potential of injury is higher. That is a fact.
The handlers do have a choice before dropping their dogs in each situation.
Even in very old hog dog articles you will find many hog dog men trained a drive, strike or bay dog to not catch. The dogs would even drive the baby hogs without catching them. Many of these men didn't use catch dogs at all, most were driving hogs to market. They were working dogs on hogs more like cattle.
Then you will find the other men that did use catch dogs along with the drive and strike dogs. There seemed to be two different styles even back then.
Many know I have and do hog hunt, and have hog hunted with some of the finest old timers in the field. There can be an art to it, and there can be total amateurs that shouldn't even drop dogs.
There are some great bay comps. out there, and there are some that do nothing for protecting our rights to hunt with dogs.
There are trash hunters and their are ethical hunters. You can say this in many hunting field areas.
Who do you want to be? These are things all individuals have to decide for themselves. What is your ethics?
Right or wrong, this is up to the handler.
Most hog hunters are not doing it for the rush and sport. The true hog hunters, do it to help farmers and ranchers control the population for agricultural purposes. Some don't even use dogs, they use traps, and haul the hogs to market for the weight price. These men are not any less, because they do not use dogs.
Sad to say, I have seen a couple of men that use Blue Lacy on hogs, and yes, to them the dogs are expendable. Normally they don't just have Blue Lacy's, but several other breeds on property. You can also visually see the poor health of the dogs they own. These individuals are not to hard to spot.
There are many great hog dog men in the Blue Lacy Family as well. I know many of these true houndsmen, that the dogs health comes first. They drop the amount of dogs needed in the area and do their best to set the dog up for success. These men do have hog dogs that live to be a ripe age. It does happen. Of course, there can be accidents, but with seasoned hunters, there are less then one might think. All these good ethical men carry medical kits, but any sign of severe injuries, the dogs at the Vet. right away. If the dogs needs to stay at the Vet., it is not a problem. They do not take chances and have made sure to have a close relationship with a Vet. in the area and money available.
Hunting of any type can be expense. Running any hunting dogs are very expensive. Just ask bird dog guides. People need to think, if you don't have the money to take care of the dogs health, then don't take on a hunting pack. Your animals, are your responsibility to take care of...
Forums can be a great way for people to communicate. But as from someone that doesn't want to loose more "hunting with dog rights", then we already have, please think before you post and explain the areas that might not be viewed as humane.
If you post your dog gets hurt or dies, include the Vet. care he/she received right away. This will save the handler grief, and others feeling a dog was mistreated. If you post for the world to see, please make it tasteful in the pictures as well.
Care about the dogs, the reason you are putting your dog on hogs and help be a part of keeping our hunting rights. Care about getting the hog out of distress as fast as possible. If you are only putting the dogs on hogs for a rush for yourself, please take a second look at it.
If you are doing it because you respect the dogs, the dogs working abilities and preserving the land for farmers and such, more power to you!
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Post by bluedog on Aug 31, 2009 13:18:07 GMT -6
As soon as I get completely dusted off and back on my scooter I'll post something else, until then I'm gonna tend to these raw spots.
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Post by homerunbetty on Aug 31, 2009 14:32:45 GMT -6
What is the difference with all of the Lacys getting killed hog hunting? Egos? Stupidity? Precariousness? Rewriting history?
There are some hog hunters using way too many dogs on a hunt. Do I hog hunt? Absolutely not! How do I know this information? Same as a lot of people. It is posted all over the internet.
I was approached by an individual about breeding. I was informed their Lacy catches when on a hunt. Yes, we are breeding for working ability, confirmation and breed standard. In my opinion, a Lacy that has the drive to catch is not something I want to breed into my program.
Lacys have been working hogs for over a century, but not down the path the “modern day hog hunter” has led them. They were used for herding and driving the hogs to market. But times have changed. People have evolved, just as jobs for Lacys have changed and evolved. However, there is a right way to maintain this job.
There are some great hog hunters out there that are very ethical. Then you have some hog hunters out there that are merely injudicious.
In my opinion, hog hunting is dangerous. However, it becomes even more dangerous when you have foolish hunters that are acting careless. From what I have been told, the “safest” (if there is any) way to hog hunt is with a few dogs baying and a pistol. Someone I had considered a dear friend of mine had once told me “they stick the hog with a knife for the adrenaline rush” (referring to a certain group of hunters).
I believe there are several individuals that are trying to develop a different type of dog at the expense of the Blue Lacy. Why else would they be making crosses with the Blue Lacy?
In my opinion, there are some that do consider their dog expendable. I cannot tell you how many posts I have read discussing this very matter by hog hunters.
Any dog’s life IS equal to any other dog’s life. I don’t think it is ok to let any dog catch and die. If a dog gets hurt, I believe it should be taken to a veterinarian IMMEDIATELY.
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Post by rachaelc on Sept 1, 2009 18:09:27 GMT -6
Hey, homerunbetty. That's me you're talking about. And I'll tell you that I did NOT inform you that my Lacy is used as a catch dog on a hunt. I told you that my dog is a good, gritty bay dog and he holds his own against big hogs and will kill a shoat by himself. He has suffered wounds, as most hog dogs do, but he is still kicking and will be that way for a long time. My dogs are not worth any less to me just because I choose to work them. Just out of curiosity -- where did you see or hear of these tens of Lacys being killeded on hogs? My oldest Lacy is going on eight years and I've never had a Lacy die while hunting for as long as I've been doing it -- since I was about two. I've also heard of maybe two Lacys being killed by hogs. I have heard of large numbers of dogs killed by stupid hunters who choose to use a gun on a hog instead of a knife. I wanted to express to all of yall here my concern on how poorly hog hunting is observed online. A lot of hog doggin' terminology is not being understood, so I though I would try and explain for those who don't quite understand: -- It is obvious that the term "gritty" has earned a ridiculously negative connotation. A gritty dog is any dog that is willing to get down and dirty to do his job. A dog that jumps in front of a charging bull to protect his owner is gritty. A blood trailing dog that will control a wounded and able animal is gritty. A hog dog that bays a hog hard right up front or will take down a shoat ( typically a small hog under 70lbs ) is gritty. A gritty dog should be able to size up what he can do and act accordingly. I do expect my dogs to get gritty and bay in front on a hunt -- this does not mean that I want them to grab the ear of 300lb boar. A good, well-trained, gritty hog dog will bay in front and work his hardest while observing the hog's movements and doing what is required to control the situation. -- "Catching" has also been misinterpreted. A catch dog catches. That is the initial act of grabbing an ear/snout/leg and controlling the hog by a dog trained and capable to do it. Most bay dogs will not catch and I do not train mine to do so. However, a good dog will control a hog that he knows he is capable of. When the bay dogs grab on to the hog after the catch dog controls it, it is no longer "catching". Ask almost any hog hunter and he will tell you that all of his experienced dogs grab on once the catch dog is there. This is not because of poor training, and it is not "catching", it is simply the dogs maintaining focus and doing what they feel necessary to help control the situation, even though they aren't really helping much. This almost always what you see in pictures because it's awfully hard to get a shot in the pitch-black night of dogs barking and running all over the place. For those who have never hog hunted, I think that you need to rethink the gun method. A gun is a lethal weapon that will cause fatal wounds from long distances. Do you think that this concept changes when you get closer? Will it not just become more lethal at a closer distance? Would you shoot a pistol anywhere near the direction of your children, especially if they were all within five feet of you? A slight miscalculation could end in multiple deaths of both people and dogs within a matter of seconds if you don't shoot a hog in the perfect place and it breaks. Even by shooting a hog square in the center of the forehead, he still has enough power to overwhelm a person for at least two minutes before he completely dead and done convulsing. I have stuck hogs and I will tell you that it is an adrenaline rush -- scary and dangerous for the human far more so than it is for the dogs. But, I am willing to risk that for the safety of my dogs. If we get to the bay with just a knife, someone immeadiately goes in and grabs the hog, flips it on its side, and sticks it or ties it. There should never be any hesitation to do this as quickly and efficiently as possible. There is less margin for the dogs to get harmed with the knife and hog dies faster. When there's less than six inches between you and a hog, there's not much room for a dog to get hurt by a hunter's stupidity. However, with a gun, people can accidentally shoot their own dogs, miss the hog, or end up with worse problems after the shot. When you shoot directly into a bone, there is the issue of bone fragments harming your dogs. When you shoot in the head, the hog can still charge for a moment or two afterwards. And, in the dark, it is incredibly easy to mistake a blue dog for a black hog. I believe that using a gun on a hog is stupid and dangerous. I would rather help control the hog by holding and sticking him than stand there like a wuss and shoot at it while my dogs have even the slightest chance of being hit by my own bullet. And in regards to the Lacy cross-breeding subject -- did anyone watch that public television TV show featuring Lacys recently? Look at some of those dogs and tell me that they're pure Lacy. Those were some "Lacy" dogs out of highly respected breeders, but I garauntee you that there is more than just Lacy in there. Half of them were the size of horses and had white all over their faces. Yet, these dogs were registered and bred, becoming some of the most prevalent lines in the breed and the beginnings of a genepool with very poor conformation and unity.
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Post by bluedog on Sept 1, 2009 18:19:52 GMT -6
Well stated Ms Connally,
I made a statement the other day about dogs being shot over by the hunter. The hunter who told me that was Mr Jimmy Brooks, a very well known lacy man with many years experience. I was just relaying what I had been told. I certainly didnt mean to offend anyone.
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Post by rachaelc on Sept 1, 2009 18:26:41 GMT -6
I absolutely REFUSE to shoot over my dogs. I will shoot deer with my dog in the blind and bird with my dog right beside me, but I was taught to never point a gun at or near something I value. I will not hunt them during deer season, either, because of fear of them getting too close to a deer blind.
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Post by bluedog on Sept 1, 2009 18:46:11 GMT -6
Ms Connally,
You make an excellent point as to how you prefer to hunt.
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