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Post by Clifford on Apr 18, 2010 7:43:15 GMT -6
Well, yesterday was a real experience! I got up at 3:20... Yes, there is one of those in the AM for all of you who did not know... On the road by 4:20, headed to Diana, TX, a place I had never even heard of until two weeks back. And, at 5:15 the cell phone rings.., Who on Earth calls anyone at that hour? It's Elvira, of course... And, she wants me to fill her in on all of the doings at the bay... Well, here is is...
After nearly four and a half hours, I arrrive at a hand scrawled cardboard sign that says Hog Dog trials. It directs me across a field where a young lass, crammed into a pair of jeans that were obviously from smaller times, takes a quick five spot off of me and points to my parking place. Another bunch of scribble plainly states, "No cameras", but the rest if it is too blurry to read. I assume it says "have fun", cause there seems to be about a hundred dogs, trucks, and people before me, although I don't see anyone holding a beer, yet!
I park, navigate my way through the copious piles of cow stuff, and head toward the action! The small bleachers are filled with the oddest assortment of folks I have seen in a while. But, to them, I may have been the most unusual, cause not one other man had short pants on! Oddly, there were no cowboy hats in the crowd... But many of the fellas appeared to have been out the night before, and found a woman. One of these managed to set her hair of many colors on fire lighting a cigarette, and I suddenly understood why no one had a beer. They were not in need!
There were dogs, and hogs, as promised. Although, the atmosphere was much quieter than I had expected. These ol boys are serious about this! Then, the law started showing up! I had found Camo, and we were trying to see if the gate had been barricaded, cause for a while we thought it might be time to run... But, before long we decided that they were only there to see the show, and the "girls"... Note to all interested in those... You can do better! For that matter, some for the dogs looked better!
Well, after about five hours of action and overcast, the bottom suddenly fell out, and I hoofed it to the car. The only one on the lot, I might add. And, after it continued for a good fifteen minutes, I decided that it was time to head toward Missippi again. I had seen what I came for, and now had a good handle on what to expect at the next one.
So, if you have never been, here's my take on it. Watching the people is almost as much fun as watching the bay. Missippi folks and Louzanna folks aint much different from the Texans. Dogs and Hogs is fun! Bring something for the sun, be it cold and wet, or something to cover your skin... And, understand that you are entering an arena dominated by, and filled with, Catahoula Curs, Black Mouthed Curs, where a Lacy is considered almost worthless! And, one more thing... Be glad you are not the hog!
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Post by bkeepr on Apr 18, 2010 8:56:48 GMT -6
That sounds a lot like the dirt bike drag races that we go to, only much more fun because there are dogs and hogs! I bet the "girls" were missing some toofus-es too. Why spend money on teeth when you can spend it on important things, like beer. I hope Camo's dogs did great!
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Post by Clifford on Apr 18, 2010 10:45:18 GMT -6
I am going to let him talk about that part... The kid sitting next to me with a kid of her own, could not have been more than 17... I think the theme for the day was Hair and Bare! Unfortunately, and I won't say this very often, there was too much of both! The crowd seemed vaguely like the folks that go to wrasslin, cept maybe not quite that high class! Camo, his friend, and I were definitely exceptional just by our presence! The folks from Fort Bayou Ranch were there running dogs, and Camo pointed out that they were racking up on the trophies early! I saw some good dog work, a couple of wrecks (one exceptional), and learned a lot in just a short time. But, we really need more Lacy dogs at these events, and doing well. I am hoping that John and I will be able to team our dogs together and show em something soon!
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Post by bkeepr on Apr 18, 2010 12:21:25 GMT -6
We are definitely going to the Ocmulgee Hog Festival to watch the baying competition. We plan to bring Pearl just so she can smell hogs. She is now not quite 8 months old and weighs 27 pounds. She has no fear at all and no experience with hogs so we won't enter her. There was a hog bay in Waycross Georgia this weekend; I heard they required that the dogs wear muzzles.
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Post by Clifford on Apr 18, 2010 14:37:36 GMT -6
That sounds like a case of over zealous law enforcement. It also takes one of the dogs tools away, because they cannot nip the hog to make it turn and stop. Do the hogs get hurt in a bay? Sure, sometimes... And, so can a dog... But, overall this is not a bloody sport, or anything that you wouldn't want a kid to watch...
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Post by bkeepr on Apr 18, 2010 16:31:37 GMT -6
It seems sort of like a herding competition, am I right? In some of them the dogs get disqualified for laying a tooth on the stock no matter how deserving the stock may be, in others a well-aimed nip is OK but in all competitions slashing is a big no-no. But if the stock horns the dog or handler that is OK!
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Post by camo on Apr 18, 2010 19:02:57 GMT -6
Well after a 1hr rain delay they got started back up . I only got to run Patch in the 1 dog amateur and he started really good till about 1 min into his run he took a really hard shot to the hind quarter , He yelp a little and then just backed up and would not stay in on the hog. It is by far the hardest he has ever been hit by a hog. It hurt his confidence more than it hurt him I think. The 2 dog am, that I had planned to run him and Sammy in got pushed till Sunday so we left at 11pm Sat. to head back home. I am starting to wonder if my dogs will ever really be able to compete with the other dogs. I am starting to be live a lot of what people are saying about Lacy's, that the breeding programs and promotion of the lacy breed has really hurt them in the hunting world . They have been promoted as a working breed and there are a lot of them that are working and I have a lot of respect for those who are hunting there dogs. The reality of it is they have been mostly breed for pets . They are not what they use to be and dam sure not what the lacy brothers breed them to be. I am OK with that except for breeders that promote them as a working hog dogs. Most of these breeders are not fooling anyone in the hog hunting world. The fact is that a breeder should be working there breeding dogs and prove that they are just that be for they turn them in to a puppy factory. In the Cat and cur world that is how it is done most of the breeders I talk to keep the majority of there pups to see what they are producing form there breeding's. Pups that do not make it are then sold off as pets spayed or neutered dogs.there breeding programs. Cat and Curs are just what they are promoted to be by there breeders a hard core hog hunting dogs very few people seek them as a pet. In most cases if someone owns one of those dogs it doing just that working. As I see it the time that it will take and the amount of breeding it would take to put these dogs back to a standard of a hog dog will take decades.If that is any ones intentions. I do not think it was the intention of most to do what has been done to the lacy breed but none the less its done . I was told the big change came when the push for them to become the state dog of Texas became the main focus . I can see where you would not want a dog that would bite and catch a hog and make it bleed or rip its ear off as the dog that represents your state. That just not good . So the push and main focus became to promote them as a cattle dog and a blood trail dog and pets.they are good at all of that. It was more excepted in the political world .Once it became the state dog then came the demand for the dogs and then comes the money and the breeders that flooded the market with there dogs.These same breeders if you call them and I have and still do when they have pups will say there dogs hog hunt but tell them you are going to hog hunt that dog or bay pen that dog and there is no way you will get a pup . Make up a lie and say you will use it for a cattle dog or a blood trial dog and you will get a dog .The truth is you can not put 4 or 6 litters a year out and say they are all working dogs.It is just not possible in any breed. I do not have a problem with that but the breeders need to stop promoting the dogs as hog dogs it does more harm than good. I can tell you there is a hand full of people hog dogging these dogs. These people have great Lacys dogs that will hunt and bay and have the drive to do it. They under stand what it would take to put the dogs back to what the were. It a shame they were pushed out of the main stream breeding and with them so went some of the best blood lines that will hunt. All that being said I still intend to push my dogs in baying competitions and breed my dogs towards that goal . I go week after week to bays and listen to these dogs and the breeders being put down . It is true what they are saying and I can not argue with them on that and it may never change . They do give me and my dogs a hard time but all in all they are good people . Many have put a lot of time and effort and there bay pens to help get my dogs to where they are now . The people I have met at these bays despite what you hear are true dog lovers. I say this because they know there dogs could be hurt or killed but they under stand that there dogs were breed for that and they dogs do love it . Hog dogs have a true god given talent and to see them work is amazing. I They love what they do and to be denied that or have it breed out of them is a true shame. Clifford can tell you these dogs take some hard his and get tossed in the air 4 feet hit the ground and act like it never happened. I can also say that most of the people I meet at the bays there dogs are also there pets and get treated as one. It has shown me that the dogs can be a true working breed and a pet as well. The other thing I wanted to add in our world we allow UFC fighting were I have seen more blood and injures in 1 hour than I have seen in 6 months of hog baying competions.
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Post by bkeepr on Apr 18, 2010 19:35:51 GMT -6
I was on Youtube listening to the granddaughter of one of the Lacy brothers talking about her dad working his dogs... sounded like it was mostly on hogs. I didn't know that, I thought they were more of a general purpose homesteading dog.
From what I have seen on the hunting forums, the hog doggers adore their dogs and spend lots of money on things like GPS units, anything to put the odds more in the dogs favor. And I have noticed, I never see a fat hog hunter! They run their butts off trying to get to their dogs before they get hurt. It sure looks like an exciting sport.
My Pearl already has littermates that are hog hunting, one has already been killed. I guess given the nature of things, accidents are bound to happen in one form or another. Regular practice in a bay pen would certainly help.
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Post by Clifford on Apr 18, 2010 19:41:53 GMT -6
That's some real perspective there Camo... You know, of course, that I was kidding about the folks there, and that as I told you before I left, I had a great time. The drive home was a killer though, and I needed a huge cup of coffee to help keep my eyes open! Next time, I will plan to stay over, so I can stay at the event longer too!
I have to say that I agree with the way you see this situation, and the work it will take to get it turned around. Although I have also told folks I do not want any pups from our Lacys going into a strict hog hunting household, it is for the reason that I feel they would be housed in an outside kennel and treated only as part of a pack, and considered expendable. If someone can hog hunt with their dogs, and still treat them well, I have no problem at all with it being done!
But, for now, I would like to see some of the dogs that are in breeding programs turned out in a bay pen, to see if they can walk the walk. If they are being touted as capable of producing working dog pups, it would be a good thing to have the recognition, right? We had been discussing some sort of program inside of the TLGDA, which might allow some certifications for blood tracking. Maybe something which recognizes acheivement in the bay pen could also be a part of this process, if it ever happens.
All the talk in the world will not come close to what people seeing these dogs in action could do for the breed. I hope that others will soon follow your lead, and join us in trying to climb a very steep hill!
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Post by camo on Apr 18, 2010 20:38:41 GMT -6
Clifford I had a great time it was good to see you. I agree we you about the people watching . They are some special breed of people as well as the dogs. I was just passing on info I have gathered from talking and listening at the bays as to what has happened to the Lacy breed. I know they have it in them. I personally think the dogs can do it as I told you at the bay I think they just take more time to mature than the other dogs. I intend to keep up the baying my dogs have done well for as little as they have been baying. I may never in my life time to see a lacy win Uncle Earls . I just want to at least give them the chance to do well . I know it will take time and I am putting plenty of that into it. I hope you can come to the property so you can go to the practice pen. Oh I had 2 hogs in the trap when I got up today. There were 2 perfect eating size 70 lb pigs. Let me know when you get some free time. I have no problem with Lacy's blood trailing they are good at it sorry if I at all implied ed that . Bella is one great blood trailer. I use to use wiemeraners for it Bella is better than anyone of them I have ever owned.
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Post by rebeccaferrell on Apr 19, 2010 11:44:51 GMT -6
I'm obviously not a hog hunter but don't you think that hunting an 8 month old is too young? Such a young and obviously inexperienced dog..it's a shame. I don't know what hog hunter forum you happen to visit IKathy) but the one that I pop into and out of is quite different than what you describe. I've been around dog hunters and hunting dogs for 30 yrs..and I don't know any of their dogs that are treated like we treat ours. They are penned all the time except for when they are hunting. VEry little human interaction. Perhaps it's a Florida thing. But the forum that I read, there are many of them, if not the majority, that think of their dogs as expendable. And perhaps that's the mind set you have to have to hog hunt??? Hunt enough of them and it will happen. I've been there, I've done it, but my mind is wrapped around dogs that are gonna be with me a long long time. I've moved on to little varmits which are still fun, give me a charge when I manage to hit one..I think it's my age and my physical limitations that have changed my perspective to some degree. Camo, I think you are correct that bloodlines can lose their grittiness within a few generations but I never had the impression that Lacys were all about hog hunting anyway. That's not why I got into them. But I do see your point that non proven, non working dogs shouldn't have their litters sold as "hunting" stock. I think that every Lacy has it in them to bay and to hunt but consistency in a litter would drop with unproven dogs. Perhaps there is a trade off in the type of mentality that a hog dog has over a blood tracker? Having bred and raised APBT for 20 some odd years I can attest to a distinct difference in their mind set. Mine were smart and loving but also 100% focused on the catch and kill. It's all about what direction you want to go in? Cats are stubborn, hardheaded dogs, IMO. I LOVE my sensitive, thinking, want to please Lacys and won't even consider a different breed of dog.
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Post by Clifford on Apr 19, 2010 11:55:42 GMT -6
Wait! Let me get out my violin...
OK, post some more!
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Post by rebeccaferrell on Apr 19, 2010 13:26:52 GMT -6
Clifford, WTF??? explain please..i'm not asking anyone for a dang thing..just stating it as I see it. Don't care if you see it my way or not. I'm willing to read and listen to just about anything anybody has to say about a topic but I'm posting from where I'm standing. I'm not condeming hog hunters by any stretch but telling you what I've seen. Course i'm not wordly like some of the rest of you are..my experience stretches from Taylor, Madison and Wakulla counties..woohoo three whole counties.
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Post by camo on Apr 19, 2010 15:29:47 GMT -6
I agree that there are plenty of hog hunters who treat there dogs like a pack tied up out back and only hunt . I also know plenty of them that do not. I for one and plenty of my friends . Do my dogs Stay out side kenneled yes they also come inside some times they stay in all night.They get treats they run at least 2 to 3 hrs a day chasing there ball it is there favorite thing to do .I can tell you my dogs are lean and well conditioned . I would put Bella up against any dog . She can run full tilt for as long as you can drive her ball with a Racket. I promise you will quit be for she does . My friends treat there dogs the same way. I do think with all the new laws on hog bay there is a shift in people at the bays yes a lot of woods hunters show up with there dogs .There more and more people with just dog that are bay pen dogs. These doge are well taken care of people spare no expense when it comes to there dogs .You will see that if you go to one of the big bays.When most pet owners are feeding there dogs kibble and bits these people are feeding only the best food for there dogs. That's because a good bay pen dog can sell for $1500.00 to $ 5000.00 and a top notch dog can go for way more than that , So they are treated very well . I do not hog hunt with my dogs ! I bay pen them on hogs it is a much more controlled way to work my dogs and limit the chance of injury they can still get hurt but less chance. A blood trial dog can get hurt just as easy as a hog dog. If you dog comes up on a wounded mature buck that is not close to being dead it can hurt or even kill a dog. If you are blood trailing a hog and its not dead it can really do some damage . A big mean bull can take it to dog .It is all a risk when you work these types of dogs.As far as 8 months being to young to hunt hogs just depends . The people I know all start there dogs early .Most have had them around pigs at age of 3 months introducing them to piglets.Then moving them up to bigger pigs and working them with there experienced dogs and go to the woods around 8 months and up. Sammy started at 6 months and she is 9 months now . She has bayed at least 1 to 2 days a week since she was six Months . At 9 months she can hold her own in the pen with a 200 lb hog . She does have a lot to learn and learns every time she gets in a pen as does Patch. There are thing that can't be tough they just have to learn not all pig are created equal and after they get a hold of a couple of bay ones they will learn that. The lacy was bred mainly for rounding up free roaming hog and cattle in thick brush country . Lacy are smart and can be tough to do anything and will do it well. I think most dogs can I think the Lacy has an edge with there intelligence level. At this point or the last I had heard no Lacy has ever passed the Search and rescue dog test they have tried and failed.I sold one of my pups to a lady with Sunset Valley search and Rescue he is in training now. He is a full brother to Sammy so we will see how that goes. I do remember when you could not get you hands on one unless you were going to work it .Then you waited a long time to get one ! Now you can get them almost any time with no trouble . As I said be for I do not have a problem with that its just how it works. I just think if as a breeder you say my dogs hog hunt or blood trail , herd cattle heck even if its agility. I believe you should be able to back that up and know your breeding dogs can do that and produce pups that can as well . If I am going to spend $500.00 to $1000.00 for a Lacy I want to get my dog from a breeder that has pups from parents that are good at what they do in just one area . These dogs are good but I do not think that they can be very good at all of the thing they are know to do.I think they could do them all but not be great at all of them. There may be exception I am sure but in general. IMO I am not saying they need to be certified in every thing but if you blood trail or what ever you advertise your your dogs will do. You can take pictures you can keep records and information about that and have references from people you have helped and have seen your dogs work . Awards trophies what ever it is. If people are just looking for a companion dog it doesn't matter at all to them they do not care.They do make great pets. They are my babies and I treat them very well but not the reason I got into Lacys and breeding them. I will sell pets with spay neuter contracts but my best dogs Will go to working homes if at all possible. I hope this helps clear up what I was trying to say.
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Post by rebeccaferrell on Apr 19, 2010 16:41:48 GMT -6
Camo, I'm not taking exception to anything actually..I think perhaps the distinction might be between how bay dogs and woods dogs are treated, in general. I've not been around people that had bay pen dogs. Only woods hunting dogs..be it deer dogs or hog dogs. And they weren't and aren't well treated for. Recently one of the local hog hunters that I was talking to in the feed store about hog hunting replied to my "do you use cut collars or vests"..NO, survival of the fittest was his answer. Didn't make a damn to him if his dog was killed. And quite honestly what's to say that just because you have a cracker jack bay pen dog that it will have a lick of sense in the woods? So if you breed bay dog to bay dog are you gonna get a woods dog?? That bay instinct is in all four of our Lacys and I don't doubt for one second that they would get in a bay pen and take right to it. They are quick and agile. Now whether they have the bottom to come back after taking a hard hit who knows. I think that Patch had more smarts on SAt. and stayed back further to keep from getting hit again. That's smart and a dog that will keep himself alive..not one with marbles between his ears that will keep going until they are killed. when I think about the dogs that are the grittiest I don't always think brains.
I am well aware of the dangers of any hunting, herding, baying, whatever, I don't have a problem with that as long as you, the owner, use common sense and take the precautions that should be taken. This goes for any pet owner. But accidents and tragedies occur in the best of circumstances. Trust me, i've made my share of dumb and ignorant mistakes. From what Clifford has told me it's about as safe as you're gonna get while running a hog.
And Cristi, I don't know what he told you but he told me the women were HOT!!!!!!
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