Scott
Ready to Hunt
Posts: 182
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Post by Scott on Feb 7, 2011 7:38:10 GMT -6
I agree, and with the lacy breeders limited focus in general. you don't have a very broad base to chose from. Camo has the right idea. Most lacy strains are one good dog someone had, and that makes it very hard to single out a base to start from. In this instance you will lose some of the versatility by breeding for a purpose. BMCs seem that way, you have Ladners that are strong tree dogs, Mcdonald's bay dogs, Givens herding dogs, though they all retain some aptitude of all three traits they have been bred to focus on one. Lacy's really aren't there yet. IMO. That's why I posted the question a while back on the other forum about keep track of all your prodigy. I only got one good response.
Bluedog the lines I mentioned earlier are coonhound breeds.
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Post by Clifford on Feb 7, 2011 8:20:00 GMT -6
My father, who was really into bird dogs, would spit whenever anyone mentioned Weimeraners, or Vizlas, because he never believed there could be great all purpose dogs. I share his belief that one dog might be extremely good at one task, and only adequate at another. As you said Scott, Lacys are in a quagmire because the "focus", if you will, of many breeders seems to be trying to create that perfect all around dog, which bogs us down with mediocre results on each specific task.
If you want tree dogs, you should breed dogs that tree like crazy. The same thing goes for tracking, herding, or any other skill. Try to get a beagle to tree, or a rat terrier to run rabbits, and you will be beating your head against the wall. They just aren't the right dog for that job! And, we have Lacys being put into that same situation... They are decent at many tasks, but some of them aren't even that great at anything other than keeping a couch warm!
I am not saying that we have to limit the scope of what Lacys are used for, but it is funny that they started off on hogs, and now folks act like that is poison to the breed! The mixing of all of these bloodlines is not purifying the breed, it is creating a mongrel with papers, in my opinion! Excuse me, I have to go put on my armor suit now!
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Post by bluedog on Feb 7, 2011 18:22:47 GMT -6
Thank you John for stepping up and saying that is your goal. I was wondering if this was anyones when I started this thread.
Good points have been brought to light about the breeding of type and how difficult it is under current restraints, I agree it will take many years to complete or you must own many, many dogs.
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Post by Clifford on Feb 7, 2011 19:58:21 GMT -6
And, start when you are very young?
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Post by bkeepr on Feb 7, 2011 22:24:38 GMT -6
My Pearl is maaaybe 17 1/2 inches tall and 32 pounds, she wiggles so much it is hard to tell. I like her smaller size for blood trailing because she doesn't dislocate my shoulder when she pulls. Also, I can pick her up and hand her over fences to complete strangers and she is OK with it- good temperment too! We blood tracked on two cross-fenced properties and she was fine getting handed off.
I like the smaller size because I think it puts less stress on the skeleton, and I wonder how the bigger dogs will fare if they make it into extreme old age. But, I would like a slightly larger size for herding to cover distance faster. Although Pearl is pretty zippy!
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Post by camo on Feb 7, 2011 23:01:54 GMT -6
Clifford you don't need Armour around here we like you because you speak your mind . I do like my dogs smaller but don't get me wrong I would not trade Patch for anything he is going to make great babies with the right gyp. He has traits that are more than physical that make him a great dog .
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Post by Clifford on Feb 8, 2011 6:29:23 GMT -6
It's the mix of ideas that makes things happen, in my opinion. But, I also know that these dog talks can become real problematic when we disagree... As long as the discussion remains non-political I enjoy the process!
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Post by rebeccaferrell on Feb 8, 2011 9:01:01 GMT -6
Maybe I'm just not getting this thread? Thanks to much help from Cynthia who is helping me understand that you should, IMO, breed your dogs to compliment the other. Meaning what one dog lacks try to find a mate that is stronger in that area in the hopes that the cross will be the best of both. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If you study the lineage of the dogs you can determine with some certainty what your cross will produce based upon what's already been produced by those lines. In my opinion it's not necessarily a hodge podge as Cliff implies. I disagree with Lacys not being able to be great all around dogs. Perhaps each one is a little stronger in a particular area but that doesn't mean you are watering down the abilities in the breed. Once again, I'll point to horses. You'll have halter champions; western pleasure champions and hunter/jumper champs. EAch of these are stucturaly built in a specific way .There are horses that do just one thing. Then you'll have horses that excel at many of the events..they are Supreme Champions meaning they have excelled at three or more events. Not an easy or common occurance. In the opinion of most, the overall horse is the BEST and most PREFERRED. I don't see my rationale being any different in my dogs. I'll state it again like I did above earlier. If you want to specialize in just one area..go for it. Or for a certain size..go for it. I want to whole package..ability, termperment and size. I also prefer the smaller Lacys and want to have pups no taller than 21". My male Amos is tall..just under 23"; he's a medium boned dog only weighs 52 lbs. However, he is the largest pup ever produced with this cross. Do I think he's going to have only large pups..nope. His gene pool consists of small dogs. Females 18-19" and the males not topping 21". There is only a 1/2" diff between my females but a 3 lb diff. Lila is a light boned lacy; Dixie is a medium boned dog. I would not breed Lila to a light boned male. Lighter bones just don't hold up under hard work and impact. Bluedog..I don't think you have to own many lacys..I think you have to be willing to go out and fine the best dog possible which may be outside of your particular kennel. This is what John did if I'm not mistaken when he bred Sammie.
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Post by Clifford on Feb 8, 2011 11:50:09 GMT -6
Ferrell, you are describing traits, not skills, that you are calling the whole package... Show me a Lacy that is excellent at everything, and you have a million dollar dog! What I was referring to, is that some foks tout them as such!
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Scott
Ready to Hunt
Posts: 182
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Post by Scott on Feb 8, 2011 14:11:53 GMT -6
I think your first hang up is you kept referring to the breed standards. When you breed a strain it your personal standard. You obviously have to stay within those limitations. However you set your own standard. If you want all your dogs to be 20", only breed dogs that consistently make 20" dogs. Until you refine a strain of the breed that is consistent.
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Post by rebeccaferrell on Feb 8, 2011 16:45:22 GMT -6
Scott, I don't know if your comment is directed to me but I'm just using size as an example since we seem to keep coming back to this beat to death topic. personally, I'm looking for temperment and ability as the top pics. I have my size preferences however. All that said, without the right body structure, be it a dog or horse, you aren't gonna have much ability. Or at least not for the long haul. Well actually, most Lacys I've seen will bay, track, tree (and I've got a couple that are jam up retrievers) given the opportunity. Whether a dog is "excellent" depends on what I ask?? An owner's opinion; certificates? years lived? hogs caught? This is subjective in my opinion as to "excellent".
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Post by podunkheaven on Feb 8, 2011 16:48:43 GMT -6
I can't say I completely agree or disagree with the ideas on this thread. I have seen some "million dollar" Lacy dogs in the few years I have been involved with this breed. The trainers on the other end of their leads exposed them to multiple experiences coupled with professional technique. My feeling is like I've said in the past; Lacy dogs are only limited by their trainers...some dogs do learn faster and are easier to train, and have great structure...that I attribute to selective breeding. Jasper is just such a dog...however I can't take the credit for breeding or training him. He works cows, blood trails and was a very experienced and successful strike dog before his leg was amputated at the shoulder. Most of you guys here know my breeding program...and like mentioned in the above post, that is my personal preference. No matter what your breeding program you will never produce 100%. I have been involved with breeding for more than 27 years and have yet to see that in the US or Europe. There are many variables in how a dog turns out...I have on more than one occasion seen dogs labeled "Bad" become overachievers in the the right hands. I don't think it's time to give up on the lacy being an all around dog if they are in the hands of the right trainer. Just another angle of thinking here.
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Post by Clifford on Feb 8, 2011 18:11:18 GMT -6
Another thing Dad said a lot.... Jack of all trades, master of none!
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Post by podunkheaven on Feb 8, 2011 19:08:59 GMT -6
I don't think that term would be applicable with gene pools. But like I said just another angle or view
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Post by camo on Feb 8, 2011 20:44:32 GMT -6
It does no good to have a standard if you are able to just breed a dog to any other dog just because its registered . I know 100% there are Lacy's being breed that should not be. There is no standard if you can breed your dog just because you have papers and its registered . You can look at lines and pedigrees all day long and its a big help but the paper is not the dog . I want to see the dog touch the dog and see it work its a$$ off and I do not mean watch it run a 15 min . blood trail for 400 yards . If you are selling me a blood trail dog I want to see your breeding pair of dogs stay on a 12 hr old 2 mile blood trail and not lose interest .A bay pen dog better be able to go in that pen over and over all day long when I want him to go he better go if he gets stomped cut kicked bite he better get back on his feet and go straight back to work.The same with a herding dog he better be able to work cattle all day long and never let up . People forget that the pedigree does not make the dog . If it did every pup from a given litter would be a million dollar dog and if that was the case they would have to be Clones . There is almost noway that any given litter will produce 100% all jam up working pups . Its like humans or any another breeding thing we all for the most are different even with twins . IMO That is part of the problem with the dogs getting to big is too much looking at the papers , I only call it like I see it . It is not possible that every lacy being breed or born meets the standard . I think anyone breeding these dog knows that the only way to stop it is to inspect the dogs at a set age to make sure that the dog does meet the standards . I will tell you the problem with that and why it doesn't happen . I believe a lot of breeders are in it for the money . OOPS did I say that !! Why would a breeder risk having there puppies inspect at say 15 to 18 months if there is a good chance it may not meet the standards. That would put a kink in some breeding programs now you sold a dog that doesn't meet standards and can not be breed . I will promise you if I by a dog that can't meet standards I want my money back . If I sell a pup and it is a pup I know is being bought to be breed later and at 18 months it doesn't meet the standard .I will refund your money and take the dog back . It is in my contract and I stand be hind it . I have yet to see any other contracts that say that. I can do this because I do not put 20 ,30 ,40 dogs a year on the ground . You can bet in the lacy breed that out of 30 or 40 puppies you would guess that a 1/3 or so will not do what you sell them to do or not meet the standard . At $500.00 to $ 600.00 a pop I don't know many breeders that are willing to give back $6000.00 Or even take those dogs back to find them homes . Clifford I agree you will not find a lacy that can excel at everything there are those who are better at different things . The Lacy was breed to be along range hog dog . I have see more Lacy's that could not bay a hog or herd a cow if there life depended on it . If you ask most serious hog doggers they would not own a lacy there are a few but not many . There response is its a farm dog pretty good at doing basic farm dog work .I have been out there for the last year working my dogs all over Tx. and La. and MS. I have invested way more money and time than I will ever get back . I have been talking to hunters and bay pen people and the Lacy has become a novelty dog and there are plenty of breeders capitalizing on that .I have seen some of the best dogs there are in the hog dog field and for a dog like a lacy that was breed to round up free ranging hogs and cattle they can not hold a candle to the Curs and Cats . That is what it has come down too. There are good Lacy's out there do not get me wrong but they are far and few between . Can some some tell me how that happened to one of the best hog dogs ever breed . I think I can ! I have had several friends that wanted dogs from me and I would not sell to them because they hunt 2 times a year and want a blood trailing dog . Well that is not a working dog that is a pet that will go to camp 2 times a year. To some breeder so that they can sleep at night and not feel guilty thats a working dog .Most pet owners will never question if they got a good lacy they do not have a clue .All my friends filled out application and stated they had small yards and would occasional be hunting and mostly family companion . $ 600.00 later and you have another lacy in a bad place and a breeder with a pocket of cash. I ended up with 2 out of the 3 friends dogs they did not meet the standard in one way or another . I had them neutered and then placed them . If I had not I can promise you they would have been allowed to breed and the pups would get registered. I would not breed them but they were sold to them as breeding pups .They were told they are papered so there breed able .One went to the pound I did not have the room.They were never told that the lacy is not the best family pet but totally opposite of that . So there is my 2 cents . I back and guarantee what I put on the ground both in work ability and standard. Till breeders decide if its about the money or the dogs there will never be any kind of consistency .As a breeder you have to hold yourself accountable its easy to get caught up in the money you can make and for get what we are suppose to be doing . I almost let myself fall into that category . Then I really started working my dogs and realized that the breed is falling be hind other working breeds and to allow myself to continue to make the dog a cash crop is a injustice to the lacy breed . As a breeder you should be keeping more pups than you sell so you can develop them to reach there true potential only then do you truly know what you are producing That is what can tell you what pedigrees cant . Yes you can get feed back from the buyer as the pup grows but if you sell to the 2 time a year hunter his feed back will be he is a good hunting dog .You can always sell the dogs after you develop the dog as a completed dog . If you are a breeder that is not about the dogs and the breed quit fronting and just say its a cash crop and just sell your pups as family pets there is a market for it. I would have more respect for those breeders . If you sell your dogs as a working dog make sure it will work . It makes it harder on those who are trying to preserve the breed as a working breed not a couch potato. I pride myself on quality not quantity that should be the standard for breeders. Of cause that HMO ! You do not have to agree !
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