breeding smaller hounds

[Scott]

I was actually moving back towards the topic of being able to consistently produce smaller dogs. Oh well. The term "one in a million" really depends on what your expectations are I guess. You will end up with one occasionally in any breed. I have not seen it done consistently yet. All I can say is I'll bow out and watch. I have no intention to start breeding dogs again.

[bluedog]

Very interesting guys and dolls. I think all points being discussed are worth the read.

Remember my initial question is anyone out there attempting to breed smaller lacys or do you know of anyone who is? Camo stated that he was, others stated they would like the dogs to be abit smaller (my words).

When breeding as has been discussed is not only creating working pups it is also correcting flaws within your own kennel. You (IMO) need to get a pretty good eye for flaws in your own animals and attempt to find a subject who will compliment your dog. Its not that hard ( again IMO), the problem as I see it is alot of lacy breeders have both the male and female and didnt look hard enough in the beginning if this breeding would be a good thing or not. Ive heard (with my own ears) lol...hes a little bigger than what I like but I want to see what kind of pups he'll produce. I guess thats one way to look at a breeding program because pups are coming. Its not the way I would do it but whos to say its wrong. I certainly do not hold myself up as the ultimate dog breeder and the most knowledgeable dog person out there because Im not. Ive been around dogs and breeding programs since I was a young boy and naturally as a young boy any breeding I did was completely hap-hazard and wrong, but I did it nontheless, you gotta start somewhere. I think paying attention to your dogs will make your smarter when considering your breeding prospects. I agree with Scott when breeding you create your own standard and if adhered to properly you will eventually create type and your on your way....not there (you never will be) but on your way.

[bluedog]

that was well said Cynthia.

My dad told me "you come into this world butt naked with your name, if your lucky enough to go out with both you had a good life"

Too me that applies in all we do..............................

[camo]

Cynthia I know we have talked and feel pretty much the same on the subject We use almost the same contract heck I got it from you . I did ad a section guaranteeing at 18 month dog does not meet standard in any way or wont work . I will refund and get the pup back or if its a work issue give dog to me for 3 months and I will see if he has the ability and if not a full refund . I also state if it does not meet the standard and you chose to keep the dog it will never get papered for breeding .

[Scott]

I commend Cynthia and you for your dedication. That should be a rule not an option.

[Clifford]

I agree as well... There should never be an instance of a non-working Lacy being allowed to breed. And, testing is the only way to insure that...
However, saying good enough for now just doesn't sit well with me, as I think we should all be working on improving every day!
I strongly commend those folks who have begun training their dogs in working skills, rather than just having house dogs that show natural ability laying around.
The growing number of Lacy owners will affect the future of Lacys, and all of us must do everything we can to make sure these dogs are bred to strengthen their working ability, lest they become like Labrador Retrievers, German Shepherds, and possibly the worst exampls of working dogs gone bad, the Irish Setter.

In my opinion, there should actually be two sets of registry papers issued. One at eight weeks, certifying that the pup was bred from registered working dog stock, and another set certifying them as breeder stock at some point where they have matured, and proven themselves... This should be handled by a committee as well, to avoid any chance that any dog could be promoted which shouldn't have been. The Europeans don't get a lot right, in my opinion. But, they have some very rigorous programs on dog breeding, and I think they are right on with them!

[bluedog]

I agree with you guys, the only fall back I see is this committee deal. We all know there are politics when it comes to dogs and dog breeding.......who would be selected to serve and what are their biases......Im not familiar with how the Europeans do their grading of dogs but just have a sneaky feeling that to get it done here would be very difficult. Its a great idea, just wonder how it could be done to a successful conclusion.

[bluedog]

Camo, Cynthia, I commend you guys on having such a complete contract and being willing to buy back your dogs if they do not work out. I wish more folks would incorporate that into their programs but would bet the farm that aint gonna happen.

[Scott]

Also Clifford not every proven dog produces. Thats where I see the biggest lack. Knowing what you are producing is worth continuing.

[camo]

Yes when it comes to paper I think Clifford you have it right one at birth and one when they are inspected and proven dog. They must meet standards as well or no breeding . I also agree that good enough is not acceptible if you let a dog slide because it has even one fault that dosen't meet the standard then you are putting those faults back in the mix .Faults that will take years to weed out that is the problem .

[bluedog]

I agree Camo.....I guess the first thing to that is the definition of faults.......and to what degree they play a part. Are we talking that if the front isnt straight enough or the rear hocks arent lined up right how to correct which actually takes several generations to do, like a front takes about 7 generations to correct and a rear about 3 to 4, or we talking about say to much white in one area or another which might disqualify an animal from breeding.

Not to get into standards (which gets to political to quickly) but the standards I have read or to vague as to what a fault is and how much it counts towards not breeding the animal. Some faults or fixable some or not.

[bluedog]

Again if you set your own standards then everything I said is mute point because you will insert the Darwin theory into your own breeding program and things will improve. We've all been around dogs and breeders long enough to know not all will do the right thing, they are either blinded by money or their kennel blind or they have a lack of character which covers the latter.

[Clifford]

I want to thank all of you for your input, and keeping the politics out of this discussion, and off this board. This conversation illustrates that all have somehing to contribute, and that most are interested in doing something positive, versus just having dogs...
The cull line is at this point subjective, and a very broad standard will not do much, other than allow for a lot of registered dogs, and even more casual breedings.
I can see how, with the high demand for Lacys, and indiscriminate breeders willing to sell to homes that should never have a pup placed there, the money for a litter is very attractive.
But, I am not sure how anyone can do much about it, other than to police themselves.

[bluedog]

agreed, however by doing the right thing within your own kennel in the long run folks will beg the question..........why do your dogs look so good and work their respective jobs.

[bkeepr]

I like the idea of different, respected organizations testing and evaluating the dog. I have Pearl in UBT to be tested. In herding, AHBA and ASCA accept Lacys. AHBA has a Herding Instinct Test, both organizations have increasingly difficult trials and you are judged by 2 separate judges usually over 2 days. I don't know about treeing and hog dogging, except to enter competitions.